Official Luthiers Forum!

I've said what I had to say, and I can't say my expectations haven't been met. To summarize:

- your posts aren't on-topic
- they're taking away from the thread
- it's about your social skills, not your cognitive ones

Simple as that. Not that I can prove your intent, but it seems like you're groping for attention in much the same way as my elementary school students used to.

And like I said earlier you post pretty original and creative work. I'm not sure why you'd behave in a way that makes you more recognized for socially maladapt behavior.

One thing I can say with great certainty: Self taught/self learnt is a whole lot easier now than it was 30 years ago.

As has always been since the Sumerian started writing things down for real. Of course now you don't have to be privileged beyond paying for an Internet connection to have access to texts.

To paraphrase Monty Python - with apologies..

Say with Northern English Accent (ideally the Yorkshire one)

'' Modern day luthery? What with internet, boooks and the like? All those videos on Youuo Tubey thing? ...Luxury, dont know their born.... when I were at lad, we had to work 20 years down coal mine just to afford an A4 sketch of a tree... Plans? what were they? Tools? we had nowt - had to use the childrens fingernails as scrapers. Chisels? what were they? had to use our teeth, well those of us that still had em... only thing shared in those days were bath water - well those that had a bath or water ''

The question really is does it matter? Ultimately the quality of your instruments will determine your success level. Being taught by experienced individuals will help avoid mistakes and may speed up the process, but without the time to practice and build, it will not suddenly make you better... and I must admit, does it really matter either way, or is this just an ego thing going on?

Ya a few time now...sounds like an echo in here...and thats ok...but me has one simple question ...


................Who appointed you to judge me?

.................................................. Hmmm?


Common dude, inquiring minds wanna know.




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Now dis here is a non-sequitur...well sorta.

Dis trolling sucks...
please, lets get back to the OP questions.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I find this thread very interesting for a couple of reasons. Personally, I have no qualms about saying I am self taught. I had no formal teacher, used what was available to me in various forms, and put it all together in a way that resulted in something tangible. Here are a couple of illustrations to the point.

First, I tried learning guitar on my own in high school. Even took a class at night, but never could figure out how to make a chord with more than three strings. So I gave up. 25 years later, I took another class, and the teacher showed me how to hold my left hand so I could reach across the fret board. It worked, and I can now make a few chords. I am not self taught on the guitar.

Second, I taught myself to play mandolin by reading books. Just sat in the back room, read, tried, and ended up being able to play. It is now my primary instrument, though I have never taken any instruction from another person. I am a self taught mandolin player.

Third, we must remember one very important point, and that is we (all or most all on this forum) have a very similar ability, and that is the ability to learn on our own. I have seen many people who must be shown every step along the way for everything they do. At work, I knew who those people were, and after a while I gave up on getting them to think on their own to come up with a method to do something. Knew one woodworker who insisted on having every darn thing imaginable on a print before he could build anything, he was simply incapable of filling in the blanks on his own. Those people, in my mind, are NOT self taught, because they simply cannot come up with anything on their own, cannot put the pieces together without someone first showing them how. They are strictly followers.

So yeah, I'm self taught for building instruments. As for Todd's excellent example of a surgeon, reminds me of my days in engineering school. Had a bad teacher who could hardly speak English. I finally realized that if I was going to pass his course, I would have to learn the material on my own out of my textbook. I passed his class, his grade of me certified I had learned the material, but he had darn little to do with it.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I think I'm also of the mind that these discussions which debate the proper use of labels have a tendency to devolve. There's certainly room for healthy debate between thoughtful people, and we usually manage to walk that line without too much acrimony.

As context, I'm an amateur luthier, have made about 10 steel string guitars, and have taken a bit of a rest over the past year, due to "circumstances beyond my control". Plan to get back to it soon.

While I haven't attended formal schools (except for a few ASIA symposia, which certainly count, for the couple of days that they represent), I certainly don't consider myself "self taught". Just asking questions here reading this forum over the years has helped me to sort out so many seemingly insoluble challenges.

For me, the interesting point that is raised in this is how much more possible it is these days (OK, I'll accept since 1997), to learn a whole lot about a craft or technique than it would have been in the pre-internet era without face to face teaching. I have absolutely no doubt that this forum, (and a couple of books, made available through Google searches and Amazon,etc.) made the completion of my first guitar far more attainable. It wouldn't have been impossible, no. but it would have been much more difficult. I consider myself to have been taught by these experiences, and by all of your generous help.

I think there is definitely some ego involved, if nothing else for a sales and /or presentation standpoint. Say you make a guitar that is well received. People look at it and think, the guy who made this did a great job, think I'll find out some more about him. If his credentials seem good, that will make me more likely to purchase something he made. So I meet him, and he says he worked as an apprentice under a recognized master until gaining a reputation before taking off on his own. Wonderful, that seals the deal. OR, perhaps he says he is self taught, learning what he can as he can, from books, internet, etc. OK, this is someone who obviously has some skills. OR, perhaps he blushes, mumbles "well, I didn't really build it, a whole bunch of people helped," as he looks down and shuffles his feet. Yeah, OK, nice talking to you.

In all cases the guitar is the same, but your perceptions of the value of the instrument are colored by the background of the person who made it. Get enough of them out there and they will speak for themselves. But until then, you gotta sell yourself along with it.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Well back in the bad old days (let's say 1978) we had very few texts. Sloane had a couple of books out and there may have been 4 or 5 other books. I think all of the books were pretty brief and scant on the details. If you hit a problem you were essentially left to think it through for yourself, unless you were lucky and able to consult someone who had a lot of experience.
Then along came Cumpiano and the Courtnall books and suddenly real texts were available that smoothed the way a little. Things really hit the stratosphere when the net expanded. It was extremely rare to see a decent amateur No. 1 Guitar back in the 70's. Now it's not uncommon to see first efforts looking very professional. I don't think humans have gained more innate natural skills in that time but of course the spread and availability of knowledge is so much better - and help is always a forum posting away.

Yeah I built my first two guitars in 1991. a Sloan steel string and a Sloan classical. I think I also referenced Young's book but I thought his neck joint was bizarre. I was lucky to be living in Washington DC area so I found out some local builders and at least got a few tips and a couple hunks of wood too. I remember their first impression of my very first guitar was something like, well it sounds nice...

That was probably being polite, it didn't sound bad but it looked god awful. Suffice to say I know what you mean. I see first build pics on this forum and it impress me greatly. But I'm sure there are just some people that have a natural talent too. It took me a good ten guitars before I finally found my own way of doing it and had enough experience to fix minor flaws and handle a chisel better.

I still have the Gore and Somogyi books on my shelf collecting dust waiting for me to read after over a year. Just need to sit down and get some schooling.

The term "self-taught" refers to individuals who learned independently apart from a formal institution, mentor, etc. Of course, the semantics can be debated but I would encourage people to use words the way that the vast majority of the educated population uses them. Certain things are worth correcting such as ironic -- people get the usage wrong all the time when they use it to describe strange or unfortunate events. Now back on track, you can declare yourself "self-taught" and not come off as arrogant at all. I state that I am self-taught and people are always surprised -- and then I follow up immediately with how the internet and free access to information has completely changed the difficulty level for learning things that would otherwise be insanely challenging.

I agree, and although I don't think I've yet told anyone that I'm "self-taught", the few people who've seen my initial guitars and know me personally usually ask, "did you really do that" or "how did you do that", and I get a chance to explain my learning process. If I had to write it up in a paragraph, my topic sentence might use "self-taught", but I would follow with references to the books I initially consulted, all the information I found on the internet, and the OLF in particular. I didn't start my first guitar until I had read Cumpiano a couple of times, seen a number of U-tube videos (thanks Todd, John Hall and many others) and studied this site for several months. I've been learning ever since. I've stayed pretty traditional so far and move at my own pace, and maybe I'll develop some of my own style or techniques as I go, but I will borrow heavily along the way. I have no doubt that the internet has made this process much easier than it would have been for someone beginning 10 or more years ago.

When people ask me where I learned to build guitars, I tell them from books and the internet. For some reason, they rarely believe me the first time I say it and I need to repeat it a few times.
Perhaps if I simply said I am self taught, they would be more willing to accept it.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

I say in my workshop... where I have a computer and several books within reach. Heck, you guys and gals are the ones teaching me how to build guitars, whether you realize it or not.

Thanks!

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George :-)

Todd's original question (after stripping away the preamble phrases) was: "Can any builder or repairman claim to be self-taught?"

The short answer is YES. It has been happening for generations. Perhaps not always very well, but it has been happening. Todd's question obviously inferred stringed instruments, but did not state that point specifically. Even so, people have been building stringed instruments--and lots of other things--all over the world (and fixing their own and others) just because they saw an instrument or an object and thought to themselves: "I think I could do that". And, after a fashion, lots of them figured out how to do it.

Ramping up the discussion to cover the general instrument quality that we usually see here on the forum is probably another matter. Our members obviously have access to each other and to a whole wealth of additional information at their fingertips. Literate people can find lots of information at their fingertips. Even those who must rely totally on instruction which they read must learn all the tasks by trial and error. If they want to call themselves "self-taught" I am not going to argue with them.
I am one of them.

Patrick

Largely self-taught
In Theatah Aht,
Otto died acting,
Autodidacting.

(This thread has become so philosophical and intellectual, that I thought it could use a poem. I never studied formally with Petrarch, but I acknowledge my debt.)

Hmm, can't say I've ever been accused of THAT before!

However, having read the Wikipedia exposition on autodidaction, I must conclude that I am in fact self-taught, if one indeed accepts that definition, despite my former strident assertion.

This line in particular is telling: " Autodidacticism is a contemplative, absorptive procession. Some autodidacts spend a great deal of time reviewing the resources of libraries and educational websites."

I spent little or no time on the internet. I didn't know how to use it, and was deriving great satisfaction from the hands on in my little workshop, and talking to the carpenters who were giving me advice and suggestion on how to accomplish tasks that seemed almost impossible.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Ohh eye Frank n that were a looxury, why i remember when things were toof, why we ad no fingernails cos we ad no fingers n all, we used t av t borrow em n pay f privlidge.

Steve

Quite a difference between self taught and self discovery through experience of trial and error..........!!
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

That's how we use the term over here too, and I also often get into discussions on how the information age is changing the implications of the term, for this craft and others. The wealth of information may have changed the game, but what has not changed is that you still need a lot of practice to get really good. Whether you do that in your own shop, or somewhere else under the guidance of a tutor, the number of hours you spend actually practicing the craft matters. I don't know if it's 10 000 hours, as one theory states, or some other number, but its a lot! I believe the source of the guidance is less important (formal / self study), but no doubt the better your information is, the more effective those hours of practice will be.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I don't have much to contribute on this discussion, but am thoroughly enjoying the comments of all the builders. When people look at my guitars, and ask, half unbelievingly, if I built 'that', I usually tell them, " it's not as complicated as it looks." I guess, if the pursuit of a great sound were considered, I could truthfully tell them, " It's a lot more complicated than it looks."

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 4

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Under Compensated Nut!

Tell me about it. I'm 47 and I've only been at this thing for the last 15-20 years, and the more I learn, the less I seem to know. Arghhh, I hate to think how little I will know by the time I retire!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Short answer Yes , However in this day and age taking into consideration all the exhaustive comments already made , It is VERY RARE . The Majority of us are "self teaching" with the aid of what others have already done .

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An interesting concept, I have read, used and disseminated information from various sources from the time I became aware. I have hordes of people to thanks. The list is endless. Is it not understood or just plain common sense that we have all partaken in fields of knowledge. It is what we “do” with that knowledge that counts.

I have several books and other literature on the subject of stringed instruments, their structure and design. I have used many of the ideas there in. Do I knowingly give credit to those authors? No. However, maybe I should. The verdict is still out on how.

Do I need to credit those authors, Irving Sloane, David Russell Young, David Brosnac, et., by stating simple that I have read and studied the greats and have used their ideas to build this instrument you now hold in your hands. Or do I say I have been taught by the greats and you now hold the results for their efforts. Two very different statements yet they are both somewhat misleading. Todd, I believe you have presented us with a double edged sword.

Self taught, no, however, I do say for the most part I’m self learnt.

1. No.
2. No, but yes thank you, Irving Sloane, David Russell Young, David Brosnac, with special thanks to my high school shop teacher and the members of OLF, et.. I will always remain indebted.

Sincerely,

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

It was a thought I peppered thoroughly with qualifiers so as not to be a pure accusation. "seems"..."perhaps"...ect. You emphasized words that made the post read as if you react negatively to claims of being "self taught"...as if there were a great deal of thought and opinion behind your assertions. I think some of those thoughts and opinions attempt to define the term "self taught" too narrowly.

I DO see some builders that are pretty rigid about sourcing their influences. I wonder sometimes at what point they will begin to take credit for the work of their own hands. Statements crediting mentors are almost always innocuous. Showing humble respect for a teacher IS a good thing. Other statements, however, seem to be out of balance and obsessive about the issue.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic